Panel Discussion: Exercise Police: Bashing the BURPEE!
Enough with this ridiculous exercise and it's random inclusion in routines. Let's put this exercise up for critique by the panel and determine whether it should stay or go, and why.
Moderated by Brent Brookbush DPT, PT, MS, PES, CES, CSCS, ACSM H/FS
This Panel Discussion was originally posted on my facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/brent.brookbush - on September 7th 2013
Dan Hellman I will be short, because I see NO reason to spend more than 15 seconds on this question… What is your purpose for the burpee? What is your goal? What is the desired effect? What is the orthopedic issue your are helping or preventing or are you just warming up? There is no such thing as a "stupid" exercise (just stupid people) as long as you can justify and defend your reason for the exercise, I am cool with it.
September 7 at 8:25am
Brent Brookbush Alright Dan Hellman, I would have to disagree with the comment "There is no such thing as a stupid exercise" - I can name several, but let's stick with the burpee.
The burpee is nothing more than a "ballistic plank", we are expecting people to eccentrically decelerate their body weight into a very challenging position… a position that most people cannot maintain with optimal mechanics to begin with.
If your client cannot do a plank without an anterior pelvic tilt and maintenance of the drawing-in maneuver, mountain climbers cannot be done without trunk motion (stabilization of the LPHC), then your client has no business doing a progression from these activities… being the burpee.
September 7 at 8:30am
Dan Hellman Brent Brookbush you just justified my comments exactly….. If, If, If, If goes without saying!
September 7 at 8:33am
Chris Ross · Friends with Nick Chertock and 7 others
It all needs to be appropriate and customized to the client. Period
September 7 at 8:34am
Chris Ross · Friends with Nick Chertock and 7 others
Most people have "no business" doing 9/10th of the shit they do. That's not the exercises fault.
September 7 at 8:35am
Brent Brookbush Okay, so Dan Hellman… given the very reasonable prerequisites that I just layed out above (I understand this is my opinion, but I hope you agree), who's left to do Burpees… High level athletes?… Why are they in so many beginner programs?
September 7 at 8:40am
Brent Brookbush Chris Ross, how does that specifically apply to the burpee… how do you customize a burpee? Who is a burpee appropriate for? and now need for the "Period"… this is a Panel Discussion not a list of opinions.
September 7 at 8:41am
Dan Hellman First i dislike this word "stupid" but lets go with it…. Correct Chris Ross calling an "exercise" stupid is like calling a piece of rope "stupid" but actually if I need to climb out of a hole in the ground… I am praying for a piece of rope and that "i" know how to use it!
September 7 at 8:45am
Mark Bransky Burpees, when done correctly, provide quick, intense metabolic overload. That's about it. The utility of it is often used at the expense of optimal form.
September 7 at 8:46am
Brent Brookbush Dan Hellman, You are speaking so generally it is hard to keep this about the Burpee… You are holding onto a concept - "There is no such thing as a bad exercise" - rather than really delving into this exercise… it is a poorly used exercise the force an extremely large load to be eccentrically decelerated by the hip flexors and LPHC… are you honestly telling me that you cannot think of a dozen better exercises?
September 7 at 8:48am
Brent Brookbush Hey Mark Bransky, I mentioned this in the post above… are you willing to sacrifice movement quality for anaerobic conditioning? Could you not select a better exercise?
September 7 at 8:49am
Dan Hellman never used or prescribe a burpee in my life
September 7 at 8:50am
Chrissy Nettekoven Spears One of the reasons I have my high level athletes do a burpee (if they can do one with proper form, activation of TA, etc etc), is because it works on the explosion from the ground into a jumping position. This is a common position many athletes find themselves in, particularly basketball and soccer players. How many times are they fighting for a ball and get knocked down, and need to immediately and explosively changed direction to attempt to block a shot? It's just another way to train that quick motion, the repeated endurance benefit of it, etc. Are there a hundred other exercises I also use to compliment the training of that same skill? Yes! But for variety, this is one I will throw into a more dynamic drill.
September 7 at 8:52am
Brent Brookbush That just kind of answered my question Dan Hellman… I dislike the word "stupid" as well, but when the risk of injury is high, the intent of the exercise misguided, and it's use replaces other exercises that may provide better results… we have to question the exercise.
September 7 at 8:52am
Brandon Richey Dan is right on point in my book. The ability or lack thereof of the trainee to perform the exercise correctly could be made with any exercise. I see people butchering the kettlebell swing online all the time. Therefore is this exercise elitist? With any drill done incorrectly what is the point?
September 7 at 8:53am
Brent Brookbush Nice Chrissy Nettekoven Spears, usually I get the MMA athlete as an example of the burpess appropriate use, but I like your examples… no the question becomes… if you are doing this for power, what are your acute variables?
September 7 at 8:54am
Brent Brookbush Brandon Richey… we are all making the same point… but you know how this exercise is used, and form is literally thrown out the window 95% of the time, it serves a goal for only a very small subset of people, and it is done without consideration of progression. I don't know why people have such a hard time throwing out exercise, but let me throw out another thought - "There is no such thing as a bad exercise, but there are exercises that are far better than other. It is exercise selection and execution that determines the effectiveness of the professional"
September 7 at 8:56am
Dan Hellman Well let's agree agree to disagree. I will question the person prescribing the exercise and you question the actual exercise. Let's see who gets the most feedback? LOL
September 7 at 8:57am
Brent Brookbush It's on Dan Hellman!
September 7 at 9:01am
Chrissy Nettekoven Spears Brent…for power, the acute variables of reps and sets would be anywhere between 1-5 reps and around 3-5 sets. It would depend on the athlete. Other variables that could be included would be increasing weight with the exercise….such as keeping a heavy med ball at the place on the ground where your chest would be in the pushup position. In the jump-up phase, the athlete would have to grab the ball and jump with the med ball overhead to increase the intensity. There are many variables that could be included, as well as supersetting with other explosive power exercises.
September 7 at 9:01am
Ryan Crandall I agree with Dan on their being good or bad exercises. I don't have clients burpees. I do on occasion (4 times a year) do them. Reminds me of grass drills from football. Teaching the body to fall to the ground and get back up. Might be good for many athletes.
My Sensei using to punch trees. One could say that is a bad exercise, but he developed his skin/bone/muscle over decades to do it.
Agreed, most people shouldn't be doing it, but I can see some who can benefit. Just to be a rebel I might start doing some today
September 7 at 9:12am
Mark Bransky Movement should not be sacrificed. The burpee is quite a convenient total body exercise when you don't want to run anywhere and don't have any external resistance. I truly feel it's a valid exercise when performed correctly. Unfortunately it is often "misused". IMO.
September 7 at 9:12am
Ramon Gallegos I think it depends what kind of burpie. Just to get deconditioned clients moving I will REGRESS them to a higher platform (1 foot), at which point i know they can maintain proper core stability while landing flat footed. The jump is questionable and removable. Also for athletes the Single leg burpie done with proper mechanics can be highly effective for developing the Posterior Oblique system when integrated with a lateral 2-2-2 step on a BOSU or simply into an ice skater followed by a single leg burpie on the other side.
Regression is key when it comes to this exercise. I do love this exercise for conditioning clients that have little or no exercise experience and progressing it with the amount of proprioception abilities that are increased.
September 7 at 9:15am
Brandon Richey Brent with your opening statement "enough with this ridiculous exercise" it just sounded to me that you were solely calling out the burpee. I doesn't sound like we're all specifically are making the same point. I interpreted that opening statement as you questioning the relevance of the exercise itself where Dan and I are more in question about its application.
September 7 at 9:20am
Brandon Richey Sorry im typing on my cell.
September 7 at 9:21am
Kevin Conboy Hope you guys conclude burpees cause cancer! Hate doing them!
September 7 at 9:23am
Brandon Richey Btw great discussion Brent!
September 7 at 9:25am
Rick Richey The burpee legitimately should be called out. Not because the burpee is bad, but because it is a high risk, specific, dynamic, potentially contraindicated, (adjectives etc) all for the sake of "metabolic burn" aka caloric expenditure. Why call out the burpee and not the form, trainer, etc? Because even quality trainers (they do exist) tend to throw out all those good clues and training sensibilities when it comes to the burpee. So, great discussions on training variables and form still often lead to poor burpees, but calling out the burpee as an poor exercise choice for most people can get trainers to actually think about how, and with whim, they select this exercise. It just goes in the list of a bunch of "bad" exercises that "good" trainers don't do until they have a client that they can legitimize its use.
P.S. Cue someone into good form while doing burpees - they hate it! It's kinda fun.
September 7 at 9:38am via mobile
David Becker I like to use the burpee as a training goal for new clients. By breaking it up into squat, push-up, and core progressions, I feel the client gets a much better understanding of the proper body mechanics for each component. Only when everything is dialed in will I use it as a training tool. So I guess I prefer the benefits of learning the burpee rather than the exercise itself.
September 7 at 10:08am
Brandon Richey Rick you basically said what i've been saying with the addition to calling out the exercise. Strict form emphasis should come from every coach with every exercise, yet to your point the result with many is less than perfect technique hence my reference to the kettlebell swing. Oh and btw strict cue of a hard style or athletic swing will also birth some equal hatred. Btw Rick cool last name!
September 7 at 10:13am
Jacob Redmon im a student studying to be a personal trainer! i think this is an awesome! everything i read sounded really smart! basically u all agree that if u are goin to do burpees they should only be done with good form, and u should know the reason ur doing them! there are a lot of awesome comments, and evrry
September 7 at 10:20am
Nick Chertock I consider it an advanced exercise falsely assumed to be safe for all levels of exercisers because of the lack of load.
If I can't do an exercise close to correct statically how would I be able to nail it ballistically? Is that a word?
September 7 at 2:22pm
Rick Richey Here Here Brandon, particularly the last name bit.
September 7 at 10:24am
Rene Cammarata · 8 mutual friends
How about "Clients have to EARN the right to burp?" : )
September 7 at 10:44am
Nick Chertock I like that Rene!
September 7 at 11:04am
Jacob Redmon i apologize for my half comment earlier! my fingers r to big my keyboard on my phone, and my service is poor! basically what i was getting to is all of this is great information to consider for a beginner trainer! a lot of trainers dont consider the possible risk of an exercise like a burpee! some would just include it because it gets the heart rate up quick, without even thinking of the clients condition! i think Brent picked a great exercise to discuse! my own opinion, after several burpee,its seems there could be a lot of exercises that could achieve the same result, but if u prefer the burpee, or ur client just enjoys the idea of doing them or being able to do them, i say go for it as long as u can cue and currect them! but as soon as there form starts to go bad, make them stop! for myself it doesnt take long before i start going south! lol!
September 7 at 11:41am
Nick Ng · Friends with Nick Chertock and 26 others
There is no "good" or "bad" exercise. It's all relative and is based on your bias.
September 7 at 1:44pm
Brent Brookbush Response (Part 1)
Sorry I stepped away from this awesome discussion. I had two clients, my own workout and had to take Dingo "the super chihuahua" out for his workout - Not a burpee done between the four of us, so let's discuss why in my summary of the conversation above.
I think Chrissy Nettekoven Spears has my favorite comments on the burpee so far - because she is the only one to specify a goal that a burpee might enhance. Getting off the floor quick for soccer players and MMA athletes is a very reasonable goal. (The two clients I saw today do not fall into this group). I disagree that a basketball player needs them (this is my sport of choice) - if a basketball player is on the floor that much they have larger stability issues and could probably use some reactive stabilization training like "Lateral Hops to Balance" - http://youtu.be/VCuOB_e74TQ or "Hop Down to Stabilization" -http://youtu.be/ehnMVEjyjcE
Further, Chrissy went on to state the acute variables for this POWER exercise. Although she quotes 1-6 reps and NASM uses 8-10, the goal of any power exercise is to increase velocity and once velocity decreases the set must be stopped to ensure this specific adaptation. Let's see how many individuals would actually include burpees in their program if they were limited to 10 reps. I am currently in an endurance/stability phase (acute variables, 1-3 sets, 12-20 reps, slow controlled tempo, focus on increased stabilization). Endurance is the ability to maintain a contraction, not repeat a number of short contractions with no actual attention paid to time. Dingo is also in an endurance phase as he needs to lose 3 pounds and the amount of rest required for power training would not be appropriate for this goal.
Gluteus Medius Reactive Integration (Reactive Activation) - Side Hop & Progressions
Live Workshops Gluteus Medius Reactive Inte…See More
September 7 at 2:01pm
Barbara Fralinger I love that Dingo is in an endurance phase too - haha! Maybe we should consider the burpee from a mental perspective. Perhaps this exercise has gained so much hype because it is a difficult one to do rather than an effective one. I think people who can say they have "mastered" the burpee feel good about themselves and are more inclined to keep up with a fitness program because they feel a sense of accomplishment. I think a lot of the crossfit training exercises out there are a lot like the mud runs - everyone I know eventually injures themselves doing those runs because they voluntarily choose to run through a muddy obstacle course like the military….but with sneakers instead of boots. Again, no one said it is the smartest thing in the world to do, but people like testing their physical capabilities and proving to themselves and other people that they can do something labeled as "tough." Of course I had to bring in the health behavior aspect to this discussion.
September 7 at 2:17pm
Brent Brookbush Response (Part 2):
Is this exercise appropriate (are there better selections):
I find it interesting that two of the individuals in this discussion who stand behind "There is no such thing as a bad exercise" also have never prescribed this exercise to a client - Dan Hellman and Ryan Crandall… So is this loyality to a mantra rather than critical evaluation of every tool available to us?
One of my other favorite posts in this discussion is by Ramon Gallegos who breaks down a progression - David Becker also does a wonderful job of this in his post. If you are going to use this exercise, it cannot be done without consideration given to a progression of prerequisite exercises. However, I would say that a "Plank Progression" - should be part of these prerequisites.
Nick Chertock and Rick Richey do a wonderful job of breaking down the "false assumptions" made by trainers, and the lack of cuing that is generally seen with this exercise. Nick Chertock - I love your comment about "falsely assumed to be safe"… I was talking to an M.D. and Crossfit lover the other day (I am not even going to start on my issues with Crossfit in this discussion), who had heard of two reports of emergency Anterior Compartment Fasciotomies of the lower leg during "Crossfit Style Burpee Contests" - this is ballistic exercise and should be treated as such.
Plank Progression |
brentbrookbush.com
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September 7 at 2:21pm
Brent Brookbush Response (Part 3):
And back to cuing - One of my most re-quoted comments is "It is not enough to make people move more if you can also help them move better" I would love to see a burpee done with perfect from, but I haven't yet, and will doing burpees improve your movement patterns? - I doubt it. Very few individuals need more work for an already over-active hip flexor complex. I have to disagree with
Mark Bransky that this is a valid exercise - valid how? How is this a "convenient total body exercise?" It requires an immense amount of planning, progression, cuing, and should only be done in a POWER phase. A convenient total body exercise would be the "Squat to Row" -http://youtu.be/8QCux1I9_ac
So in the end, I stick by my comment that "this exercise is ridiculous" (Brandon Richey), unless….
1. You are willing to plan a progression of prerequisite exercises through endurance and strength phases
2. You only use the exercise during Power training
3. You stick to the appropriate acute variables (1-6 or 8-10 for 3-6 sets)
4. You cue appropriately
5. and your client happens to be a soccer player or MMA athlete who may actually benefit from the adaptation attained.
I see way too many burpees, and despite the various sides of this argument I think most of you would agree.
Squat to Row
Live Workshops
September 7 at 2:28pm
Brent Brookbush Tony Susnjara could not post in this discussion due to some weird Facebook glitch, so he messaged me with the post and I am literally cutting and pasting it into this comment. I hope you enjoy yet another respected professionals thought provoking post.
"Conversation started today
5:04pm
Tony Susnjara
Brent, I tired to post this in your burppe discussion but for some reason I couldn't - would it be possible for you to cut and paste it?
5:04pm
Tony Susnjara
I'm all for safe, intelligent and appropriately prescribed exercises and I do think some exercises are stupid and stupid is a good word for some but I wouldn't call a burpee stupid - maybe it's high risk but the very fact that is has been done so many times and we know of no deaths or paralysis means it's not a suicide exercise. Maybe it's a reflection of our sedentary and movement impoverished culture that we need to be so concerned about a burpee? Think of kids or athletes playing contact sports - "kids go out there and smash and pummel each other - but no burpees please, they're dangerous" How many knee reconstructions from playing netball? How many consussions from playing football? Broken noses from Boxing? Don't know if I've ever done a burpee in my life or asked anyone to do one? I have done less safe exercises (myself - not prescribed to clients) and many things that were 'contraindicated' and never got injured by them. My take away from this discussion is a sad sense of how weak we've become as a species or at least a culture because in the context of our combined base line fitness levels, it's a fair call - how safe if a burpee for Mr or Mrs average? What if it were safe to prescribe a burpee to everyone in the North America? Or Australia or in the developed world? I'd rather that than banning the burpee."
September 7 at 2:34pm
Barbara Fralinger Wow - people are so emotionally attached to the burpee. I propose we do a research study with a group of clients who ONLY do the burpee for a prescribed period of time in their workouts. If their body changes and they move better, then it is effective; if not, then it's stupid. How do we really know the physiological effects of any exercise if we don't isolate and study it as it pertains to the body? Hook up the EMG Brent - let's go!!!
September 7 at 2:39pm
Jacob Redmon NASM does use 8 to 10 reps and actually has burpies listed in the back of my book as a power exercise! it also shows it to be superset with a strength exercise before the burpie! so the more i look at the information giving, i would only use a burpie with an extreme elite athlete, like u said Brent, a MMA fighter or maybe a boxer or football player! feel free to correct me if im wrong for my absumptions! my mind is telling me i should practically never use burpies unless i in the future get to work with a extreme athlete as mentioned,and
September 7 at 2:40pm
Jacob Redmon even then they would be only maybe once a week for a four week duration!
September 7 at 2:43pm
Brent Brookbush I am an NASM Instructor Jacob Redmon, but I have my little deviations here and there - We all get to play in the grey area. I would agree with your post… I might add Football players too, but the big point of this discussion is that we "take a sincere look at our exercise selection." We all have limited time with our clients, and limited energy to workout ourselves. We must pick the best of the best of the best, not rationalize everything that comes into vogue. I hope this discussion helps raise the bar. (Small point, research shows that for most training goals, 2 times a week is optimal for adaptation, providing you stay within the acute variables listed above).
September 7 at 2:47pm
Brandon Richey Just to be clear I don't see the point in makibg a blanketed statement that an exercise is stupid "unless." In this argument I happen to be the "unless" exception to the rule that you're pointing out Brent, but to echo the previous comment and what i've been saying all along it depends on the application, programming, and who you are programming for. I do train a great deal of fighters and other athletes and i promise they've never been injured from one of my burpees. In addition to this i've got plenty of non fighters that can move as well as the competing fighters. It's all about progression, but the "unless" comparison can go on and on.
September 7 at 2:50pm
Perry Nickelston Show me you can do a push-up that does look horrendous (not losing the neck, lats, scapula, glutes, etc) and that you can actually hinge squat with your ass and not your lower back…I say you can progress yourself into burpee euphoria.
September 7 at 2:51pm
Brent Brookbush Hey Brandon Richey, read my "Response (Part 3)" and you will see we agree on several points -
The big deal is optimal exercise selection, optimal programming, ideal results, minimal risk of injury… in summary, how good can we be? There is always limited money, time, motivation, and energy… because of this we must be as precise as we can, not pick exercise just because we can.
September 7 at 2:57pm
Brandon Richey Sorry i'm catching what i can on my cell. I still also wanted to point out an earlier comment giving you props on a great discussion.
September 7 at 3:12pm
Brent Brookbush Thanks Brandon Richey, I think everyone on this discussion deserves props for that
September 7 at 3:16pm
Ryan Crandall I've not had any clients do them (maybe I did a long time ago?) as most of my clients aren't needing burpees. If I trained certain athletes im sure I'd put them into the program as well as other things I'm sure people would have a problem with including training the knee to go into and out of valgus.
September 7 at 3:21pm
Jacob Redmon i apologize, still learning the acute variables! the book does say 2 to 4 times a week! i know there is grey areas, or ways to go outside the box of just a straight by the book nasm routine, but if i had a client, that was in great condition, and needed to improve a way to improve exploding from the ground to upright position for whatever goal, what would be a better way to train for that! maybe still doing the burpie but just the concentric contraction part of it, by having them go down slowly then exploding up? or is there going to be a benefit from the eccentric contraction to help something like an mma fighter getting slammed facedown into the mat? sorry so many questions! my mind is just on the subject! dont feel obligated to answer,, just curious on ur opinion!
September 7 at 4:53pm
Brent Brookbush I think your thinking in the right direction Jacob Redmon… If you look at my "Response (Part 3)" above you will get a good idea of how this exercise should be integrated. You make some great suggestions for progression in your last post.
September 7 at 5:01pm
Steve Middleton Part I
The primary factor for prescribing a burpee is the "why?". What does your client/patient need to perform that this movement either re-creates or improves. Having said that, the burpee in and of itself does not recreate any functional movements.
The drop down and explode up could be useful in armed services and police who may need to move down quickly if being shot at and pop back up quickly to continue pursuit. However, they are not going to be concerned with jumping into the air as high as they can, especially if being shot at.
The jump up could be beneficial for many athletes such as basketball, volleyball and the jumpers of the track & field teams. But, again, I don't see these people needing to do the drop down. Even the volleyball players are going to have a different movement pattern if they are trying to dig the ball.
Part II
If there is a need for one component of the exercise, the next question becomes "can the patient perform it properly?". This seems to be overlooked by a lot of individuals from personal trainers to physical therapists (don't get me started on 'bird-dogs'). Often, the movement needs to be broken into its individual parts and worked on before progressing to the exact movement/exercise. However, we tend to be an all-or-none society so progress tends to exist in the quantity of exercise as opposed to the quality.
I guess we can consider this job security…
September 7 at 5:11pm
Brent Brookbush Thank you for your contribution Steve Middleton, I know you're a busy kat! Nicely said.
September 7 at 5:26pm
Steve Middleton Brent- thanks for including me. Great dialogue here so far.
I think exercise prescription is THE biggest issue with most professions because it seems many do not understand progressions. I see personal trainers at my gym all the time either having clients do 1-leg squats where they get to about 40 degrees of flexion then fall the rest of the way to the bench or they have them do bipedal squats but put so much weight on the bar that the client can only do 1/4 squats. Neither of these is improving the person's overall movement or conditioning.
September 7 at 5:31pm
Brent Brookbush This is why I have chosen to write my next book "Advancements in Exercise Selection", create my live workshops series "Advancements in Exercise Selection", and spend so much time creating online support materials. To say this is a gap in our education is almost a cliche, and certainly and under-statement of the facts. Thanks Again, Steve
September 7 at 5:40pm
Joshua Morton Well Brent you wanted to hear from me but I dont have much more to say after reading through all of this. Largely I agree with you and those who recommended a good progression as a means to be able to perform the exercise while limiting the potential for injury. Truly there are some stupid exercises. Some repeated movements will cause problems in the joints. If you sit there doing military presses all day you will enjoy your shoulder impingement. If you do back extensions all day you will enjoy your bulged disc. I think another piece of this discussion (as it has broadened) or perhaps it might be another discussion, is how to avoid the inevitable problems that come from repeated actions. If all you do is bicep curls you will develop imbalance. Hell, in the long run you might find you cannot even straighten your elbow. For every extension or flexion etc etc you do you should also do an equal amount of the opposite exercise. Most trainers I have met are honestly IMO, quite stupid. They have never worked in the realms of rehab. They do not understand progression or proper conditioning and prescribe functional exercise when the foundation is not even laid for the function. Off topic I know but hey, its the truth.
September 7 at 6:59pm
Brent Brookbush Hey Joshua Morton,
You bring up a ton of great points, harsh truths, and some conceptual issues. The only one I will address because I think it could cause an uprising is the "most trainers are quite stupid" comment… maybe we need to rephrase. Unfortunately, education has not kept pace with the changing market that a personal trainer works in. At one time they were the champions of general health and weight loss, now with an ever-growing older population they are obstructed by a history of injury and orthopedic issues that stand firmly in the way of attaining those goals. I don't think trainers are stupid, I just think they are sold a false concept of what the every-day grind of personal training is. It is a hard, blue-collar job that needs to find white lab-coat roots - you can never stop learning and a personal trainer certification is not nearly enough information to serve a large enough population that will provide a steady income. Eventually, things will change and you can count on me to provide an ever-improving educational platform. Try not to condemn the individual but the industry, and if the industry rejects change… well, capitalism has a funny way of taking care of inadequate service and a high price point.
September 7 at 7:09pm
Jacob Redmon i hope not to be one of these trainers u vuys are talking about! ive learned a lot at the school im going to! one is i didnt know what the hell i was doing before school! lol! another is to always keep learning! tben also surround myself with people that know way more than i do, and dont be affraid to ask questions! that being said, i wanted to say thanks to all the people gi ving information, and thanks to Brent for letting me view these post on his facebook! i hope to be a trainer that the fitness industry will be happy to have!
September 7 at 8:00pm
Joshua Morton Perhaps it was unfair of me to refer to the average trainer I met as stupid. Your right about that. It is not their fault regarding their training, but, if they turn out that way the trainers trainer needs to get back to school and caught up on concepts truths. I am very impressed by the people who join in your conversations though. I wish I knew some locally to work with!
September 8 at 6:46pm
Rick Daigle Sorry for the late chime I but I have to agree with Perry Nickelston, Rick Richey and some others but my basic standpoint is there is no such thing as a bad exercise. There is the wrong exercise for the wrong person. Perry nailed it on the head- prove to me that you can handle the regressions first and then move on. If you cannot do a simple push up, you have no business doing a burpee… If you can't do a push-up you need to be regressing further to find where the "edge" is and fix that first. It should be that simple… I also agree that we shouldn't be calling out the exercise, but rather the professional that is either teaching it wrong or using it globally for people that are not ready for it. I don't care who you are- if your form sucks, it means 1 of 2 things- either you were taught wrong or you can't do it because of some underlying dysfunction. It all goes back to the assessment….
September 8 at 7:46pm
Brent Brookbush Nice thoughts Rick Daigle, and no problem on the late chime in… your voice is always welcome in these discussions.
September 8 at 7:53pm
Brent Brookbush Jacob Redmon, I am sure you are going to be an excellent trainer, and are probably a very sound professional already… and Joshua Morton, I knew what you meant by your comments. The written word can just come across very harsh… I wanted others to know where you are coming from, and maybe share a little different perspective. We all do a little too much bashing of other professions, and often with little regards for the challenges that their profession poses. DPT's bash DC's, ATC's bash CPT's, LMT's get bashed and do a fair amount of bashing of the soft tissue worked performed by others, and in reality it is all ridiculous. We should all want every professional to be able to help as many people as possible. I don't care what your title is, as long as you are abiding by the scope of practice legislation in your state I want you to have access to as many people as you can help. Perry Nickelston, may be the very best at keeping an open mind to other professionals… we should all follow his lead. Personally I would love to see an integrated approach taught… maybe a Doctorate of Manual Medicine and Movement (A combination of DPT, DC, ATC, LMT and CPT)… and I would love to see that program offered in an affordable hybrid Online/Live Class time setting that allows working professionals and those who need to work while in school attend… Maybe even in an untracked, customizable fashion that allows tiers of scope to be attained as you progress through the program, whether it takes 4 years or 10 years based on your ability, social constraints, and financial status.
Sorry for the rant, but we need to reach out rather than condemn… we need to expect more from education, not from the student. I could start down my whole rant of why Post Secondary Education has become part of the class warfare in our culture, and how many programs breed contempt for other professions, but I will refrain from letting my political bent color the conversation.
This was a fantastic discussion with varying opinions. I hope everyone learned a ton, and I hope the big names who chimed-in gain a few followers from their intellectually stimulating posts…
Sincerely… Yours in Human Movement Science Education,
B2
September 8 at 8:12pm
Joshua Morton You are absolutely right Brent. Sadly from what I witness in general most professionals are hardly that. Or at least they think they are much better than they are. LMT, PT, CPT, ATC etc etc. Your idea of a more inclusive program is a great one. The average program out there does not get us ready for the people that are likely to walk through out doors. As and LMT, knowing what I know now and remembering what I knew then…. OI! There is no way I could help the people I do now without all the extra training I did. It is one thing if you want to relax people, but to help someone recover from a disc injury, sciatica, edema etc etc is a whole different ball of wax. One problem here is that when I was going through school they assured me I would be able to help people with these problems and some of my teachers (who where hardly out of school sometimes) acted as though they were authorities! That is not an uncommon practice in the massage field. I dont know about CPT in that regard but I can tell you about my world! Again, OI! The way the public has be miseducated they will think that all they need do is get a massage, attend a yoga class or get some personal training and they will be good to go. Many of them, as I am sure the people in this discussion can agree find failure in that route. Sorry for the tangent, sometimes Ive just got to get it out!
September 9 at 9:00am · Like · 1
Joshua Morton By the way, I dont have contempt for the others per say. What I have contempt for is those who do not know the borders of their own experience and education. And the misinformation that is pandered out to them and the public. I do believe that they are all doing the best they can and have the correct intent.
September 9 at 9:01am
Jacob Redmon thank u Brent, but i dont consider myself to be a sound professional yet! i do think im headed the right direction though! just from the time ive been in school ive learned so much, and noticed trainers that are poorly educated! along with realizing how poorly educated i was about the human body and the proper ways to progress it, or even maintain it! i have myself, made many mistakes with giving people wrong information, or pushed people to hard so that they were so sore that they were scared to workout any more! the problem i find now is, how do u tell a uneducated trainer who has every good intention of helping a client, and that has seen results with what they do, and that has been doing it for years, that what they r doing is very likely, or just possibly going to cause injury, or that what they r doing is completely opposite of what their client needs, without offending so bad that they are going to ignore everything u say and keep doing what they have been! when u push someone they are likely to push back! msot people are really sensitive to these things!
September 9 at 12:36pm
Jacob Redmon sorry to stray way off subject! lol! just to be clear, i still consider myself to be un educated, but learning everyday! now that iv learned some of the risk i can cause im almost to the point that im terrified to try to help anyone because im scared of hurting them, or misguiding them! for example, for the sake of the burpie discussion, i probably would have used the burpie in a routine with a client if i ever had one that was in really good condition! now im not likely to ever use one! lol! i think i sent everyone in this discussion a friend request! i apologize if i missed anyone! please send me one if i did! i think the more information i learn from a large variety of extremely smart people as yourselves while keeping an open mind, the more likely ill be able to helpindividual
September 9 at 1:14pm
Jacob Redmon sorry! big thumbs, small phone! the more likely ill be able to help individuals reach there goals! my tageted crowd i think is going to be over weight, and have a number of health issues! so i have a lot to learn about the body still, and will continue learning after i complete school, hopefully!!!
September 9 at 1:20pm