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Tuesday, June 6, 2023

Exercise Police: "Barbell Snatch"

Brent Brookbush

Brent Brookbush


Panel Discussion: Exercise Police: "Barbell Snatch"

Will someone please explain to me why the barbell snatch still exists in performance enhancement programs? There has to be at least a dozen better exercise selections with higher transference to sport performance and a lower risk of shoulder injury?

Moderated by Brent Brookbush DPT, PT, MS, PES, CES, CSCS, ACSM H/FS

This Panel Discussion was originally posted on my facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/brent.brookbush - on 2/16/13

Ryan Crandall I wouldn't say KB windmills are bad. Anecdotal true, but Ive been doing windmills (which is a resisted Triangle from yoga) for years and I feel amazing during and post session.

February 16 at 1:09pm

Ryan Crandall Do I have any of my clients do any that you listed, no but I'll do windmills because they feel great…even though they have no transference to daily sporting activity…if it makes you feel good do it.

February 16 at 1:10pm

Jemimah Simms I like windmills alot. For me as a hypermobile person I find it actually helpsme with trunk stability.

February 16 at 1:10pm via mobile

Ryan Crandall I do windmills different. I stay in the "frontal plane" with body and arm extended directly over my feet (BOS). I let me pelvis transfer which loads the hip, the spine stays completely neutral, and the hammy and hip abductor and adductor have a field day decelerating this.

February 16 at 1:13pm

Brent Brookbush I have already had a discussion on Windmills… these are absolutely these most offensive exercise to the human movement system I have seen… I wrote an article on the topic here… https://brookbushinstitute.com/article/kettle-bell-windmills - but lets get back to the topic at hand.

One - The rationalization "If it feels good do it" is inherently flawed… people with anterior pelvic tilt love to stretch their hamstrings, obese individuals may find great pleasure in consuming excess calories, and I have heard that drugs make you feel wonderful… Not a good rationalization.

February 16 at 1:15pm

Ryan Crandall I'd add to your list leg extensions as a movement that shouldn't be done (except initial phases of rehab as a starting point)…Sitting on a machine and forcing that poor pivotal hinge joint and making it perform a hinge can't be good. Let's see the research done on that and how it's likely to NOT carry over to anything functional. While we are at it we can throw out the old isokinetic machines. Whew, i feel better

February 16 at 1:15pm

Brent Brookbush Last on windmills, Jemimah Simms… these feel great to you because you are hypermobile. The exercise itself requires hypermobility and compensation. You can only make yourself worse with this exercise. We have to think long term solution, not short term fix.

February 16 at 1:16pm

Ryan Crandall I think your article is wrongly assuming that you MUST laterally flex through the spine. Which is in-accurate.

February 16 at 1:18pm

Brent Brookbush I'm a step ahead of your Ryan Crandall Check out my articles on the topic here

Leg extensions were already beat up & leg curls for that matter

Brent Brookbush Ryan Crandall - You only have 15 degrees of adduction at the far hip… unless you are only moving inches you are not considering the fact that your body will find a way to move if you force it.

February 16 at 1:19pm

Ryan Crandall Wow, you have a magic goniometer? Sweet! I got to get one of those.

February 16 at 1:21pm

Ryan Crandall This has been fun, gotta go to work.

February 16 at 1:21pm

Brent Brookbush what do you mean… the ideal amount of adduction is 15 degrees… I don't need a magic goniometer to assume you cant adduct more than 25 degrees

February 16 at 1:22pm

Shawn Fears I think the last time I posted on your discussions it was about Oly lifting lol. I have been doing snatches since I was 16 (37) now and never had any injury due to it. A lot depends on how you learn the lift, I had an excellent coach. Mike Boyle also talks about a higher increase in shoulder if injuries that he contributes to traditional grip snatches and has remedied it with his athletes by doing close (clean grip) snatches. This requires a lighter weight and more force to pull higher, win win. I personally program snatches into my athletes if it is a one on one situation. Where I can monitor closely the technique, I even use an app called coach's eye that allows me to slow down the lift and analyze it. With my high school football team I prefer to use snatch grip high pulls due to not being able to monitor 30 people as closely.

We have debated this before and I have yet to see any proof that anything trains triple extension as well as the Oly lifts. Quite the opposite in fact in the studies that I have read. On a side note jump training in sand came the closest.

Is it safe to assume you don't do overhead squats then if you don't like the receiving position?

February 16 at 1:32pm

Jemimah Simms I personally disagree only because my torso is after.

February 16 at 1:35pm

Jemimah Simms Sore in a good way.

February 16 at 1:37pm

Mark Jamantoc I want to take you guys back to 1974 when the Dr. Jobe first invented the EMPTY CAN exercise for shoulder rehabilitation. This instantly became the biggest hit in shoulder rehab. All the therapists and fitness professionals decided to incorporate these in their rotator cuff regimens. However, between 1991 -2006, authors Townsend, Moseley, Decker, Exstrom, Cools, Ludewug, Thigpen and Hardwick decided this wasn't the best one through EMG studies. Fast forward to 2007, Mike Reinold published a study for this on PubMed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18174934?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum . The barbell snatch is a high velocity exercise. I have seen numerous patients who subluxated their upper 4 ribs because of this exercise, including straining the trapezius, scalenes and lats. My job as a therapist is minimize injuries and educate people about proper form. There are some people that really do well with this exercise. But if this hurts the heck out of you (because different people have different postures, biomechanical alignment, habits, occupation), I would stay away from it. This leads me to wonder if studies have been done for this type of exercise. It may be coming. When Kettle bell exercises decided they were taking the fitness world by storm, a few authors got together and conducted EMG analysis of certain kettlebell workouts - which I support. Hope that helps Brent Brookbush. I would like to invite my colleague Karl Kolbeck and Mitch Owens in this discussion. I've had the pleasure of listening to these gentlemen talk about shoulder rehab in Seattle, WA a month ago. What do you think?

February 16 at 1:42pm

Kinesiology Cscs interesting discussion…enjoyed reading. i've been working in sports medicine on the post-rehab side for about 7 years and have a very interactive relationship with the physical therapists, who are at varying stages of their careers. our head PT spent over a decade as a primary physical therapist for the knicks, yankees, nets, liberty, and the new york members of the mens and womens national rugby teams. she's in her 21st year as a professional. we also have younger DPTs and i find it incredibly intriguing to see the difference in viewpoints -- some are what i would label brent as -- "very, if not ultra conservative." our head PT, who as i mentioned has worked at the highest level, told me she was ultra-conservative early in her career, but no longer feels that you can label an exercise as "inherently bad," with a few exceptions. so brent: keep this in mind as you move forward in your career. it would be interesting to see if you hold these same views 10 and 20 years from now.

February 16 at 1:54pm

Brent Brookbush Hey Shawn Fears,

How did you miss all the conversations between? LOL… Oh well, you can be our olympic lift counter-argument guy … I think that we need to be careful what aspect of triple extension you are referring to… i.e. muscle activity, force output, vertical jump, etc… we both now that someone can have tremendous muscle recruitment and a poor vertical. I want to be clear though… I am not against all olympic lifts, and I even mentioned above that a single arm kettle bell snatch is a good movement pattern that I use myself. It's what a barbell does to your mechanics and how that changes the force vector that worries me. It's not the catch position alone, but the fact that the barbell is trying to move backwards at the top of the movement and you have to decelerate this force in close pack position.

As far as overhead squats… well, we use the overhead squat as an assessment and I have never seen a perfect one (except post corrective work)… the thought of loading an imperfect pattern is not my favorite.

February 16 at 1:58pm

Kinesiology Cscs as for my view of the barbell snatch -- i see how on the surface it seems "inherently bad," but a physiatrist i currently work with who competes nationally in olympic lifting and is obviously extremely familiar with shear/compressive forces, biomechanics from a sports medicine standpoint, etc… would completely disagree as well. he's currently mentoring me on the technique for these lifts. i've also been asked to perform an inservice on these lifts at recovery physical therapy in the near future. also, i previously held the usa weightlifing level 1 sports performance coach certification, and glenn pendlay, who taught the course, and has produced 131 national champions, made it very clear how "anti physical therapist" he is at the beginning of the curriculum. so while i can't completely disagree with brent, i can also see the validity of other points of views, including the POV of physical therapists who work or have worked at the highest levels and have been doing this for decades.

February 16 at 1:58pm

Kinesiology Cscs i was busy giving a seminar to fitness trainers at our medical fitness facility on "how to integrate exercise science and sports medicine guidelines within overall program design." or, in other words, i'm becoming your competition brent! watch out!

February 16 at 1:59pm

Brent Brookbush Bring it on Kinesiology Cscs, I would gladly welcome another brother (or sister) to the HMS family

I would not consider myself conservative though, I am just a huge proponent for "optimal." As I mentioned above, "A routine is only as effective as the exercises chosen" - I am always on the hunt for the perfect routine. In my opinion there are many exercises out there better than the barbell snatch… and really, that's all it takes for me to cut it out of my program… because again, I am looking for the very best practices, not just okay practices. I have done this with countless other exercises… fire-hydrants for example… not as effective as side-lying leg raise against the wall… so, fire-hydrants are out… scaption over lateral raises… deadlifts over good mornings… etc., etc., etc…

Hope that helps… we do need far more comparative research… professionals are going to have to get brave and pit their ideas against the ideas of others… they may even have to get real brave and change their practices from time to time

February 16 at 2:07pm

Brent Brookbush Nice general statement Billie Savage

February 16 at 2:09pm

Shawn Fears Brent, I never see the discussions anymore…how many have there been?? I understand what you are saying about too my movement posteriorly, this can be minimized by technique. People who tend to over exaggerate the "S" curve of the bar path have a lot of movement in that area.

February 16 at 2:12pm

Brent Brookbush Hey Shawn Fears, Unfortunately these discussions are the least popular component of my education platform… so I get pulled in other directions. I do love hosting them though. I will continue to try and post 2 a month and then add them to the archive at the link above.

February 16 at 2:15pm

Lauren Saglimbene Great conversation. All biomechanics and physiology aside, I don't think you should be doing the barbell snatch unless you have 1. Amazing Coaching 2. Amazing Alignment 3. Amazing Glutes. And, typically, who has all three of those at once??

February 16 at 2:26pm

John Sinclair Hey Brent if I may…I have been coaching weightlifting for 12 years now and when i was learning the technique in University I not only had a ton of shoulder issues but also upper back and neck issues. I had learned the USA weightlifting method. About 8 years ago i hired a coach from Canada with 40+ yrs of coaching experience. My major issue was the path of the bar. In USA weightlifting they teach the deflection of the bar through the hips and moving back with the bar in the catch phase. I was finding that I was having troubles timing the speed of deflection with the posterior movement in the catch- therefore my shoulders and tspine and the surrounding myofascia was decelerating that force. That is really tough to do. My coach changed my path of the bar to go vertical. (much like the Russians have always taught- he spent a lot of time with their coaches and even got to watch Dave Rigert train) Now with the ability to transfer force vertical with my hips instead of horizontal the bar moves in a straight line and I move under the bar instead of creating that ant-post deflection (s) line of force. The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line! So when I am coaching athletes or new clients being intorduced to this very complicated exercise we focus on moving the bar in a straight line and moving to the bar. I have never had better strength in my shoulders and mobility in my tspine than when i competed in weightlifting- the only competition i was ever in i placed second. Hit 5/6 lifts and PR in both snatch and clean and jerk- increasing my PR over the course of 4 months by 20kgs in Snatch and 30kgs in clean and jerk. Would love to talk with anyone further on the limitations to the application of weightlifting for athletes if interested. We spend so much time about what is awesome about it and not what makes coaching difficult with athletes. I am presenting on this topic this year!

February 16 at 2:31pm

Barbara Kay Well I'm not afraid to say it - the barbell snatch is inherently bad! The amount of pressure this puts not only on the shoulders but the lower back (since a lot of people lift things without using the legs properly) is just an injury waiting to happen. The reason it may be more difficult for women to even perform the move is because we naturally have less upper body strength than men and also, their center of gravity is in hips; the stomach is the COG of men.

February 16 at 3:09pm

Mark Jamantoc Trevor Hopkins, CJ Erickson, Alex Walstead, Clark Masterson, Mónica M Rivas, Chris Warner check this thread out. Great discussion

February 16 at 3:11pm

Brent Brookbush Great point Lauren Saglimbene…

Although I agree John Sinclair that a vertical line of pull would be a whole heck of a lot safer than the "S" taught by some we still have to be very careful with whom we are going to recommend this exercise too. If you are a power lifter great… do it… get good at it… it is your sport. If you are any other athlete, there are dozens of other things we could do that have more transference, less risk, and take less time to teach… to the last point. Time is important, if it is going to take me months to teach somebody optimal technique before they are getting max benefit from the exercise, but all I have is a 4 month off season, is this a great choice. If I want over head power and strength… I think a dumbbell front squat to press will do the trick and I can teach that quick, we could even super-set it with a posterior kinetic chain toss and work at a higher velocity than the barbell snatch will allow… Now we have PAP supersets - (really cool evidence-based stuff), that function as both max strength and high velocity training, with a huge transfer to sport, low risk of injury, easy to teach and work into a routine leaving plenty of time to work on other skills.

February 16 at 3:14pm

John Sinclair Well said Brent. Has all the take home points that i make in my presentation. In addition there are very few sports that I coach and train athletes that only involve power in the vertical plane. And I know there is transference from vertical power to horizontal power. But the pattern overload in the weightlifting events and the time needed to learn that movement skill takes away from activity spent honing skills that are best spent in chaotic environments. Reaction drills, play, mirroring, integrating partner drills etc. yield more bang for your buck in my experience. Chaotic sports such as hockey, football, basketball, soccer, etc. can all benefit from LOADED MOVEMENT TRAINING. This is what we are developing with ViPR. Really exciting stuff and we are proving increases in strength and speed and power with this- best part no injuries, athletes feel successful, have fun and want to keep coming back!

February 16 at 3:22pm

John Sinclair So i still don't believe that the Barbell Snatch is a bad exercise. I still use it personally but it was by far the most complicated and challenging movement I ever learned and most challenging exercise to teach. Execution- Application-Mastery…things to consider with any exercise selection. What is the purpose and can they execute the movement safely. Can they receive this load with good relevant and real motion through the entire kinetic chain. Is their nervous system and myofascial system resilient enough to teach it. How do I apply this exercise to their program- is it specific to the goals and outcomes THEY want. will they be able to master this movement - do they have the time, and is that mastery important for their activity, sport.

February 16 at 3:26pm

Larry Husted So, after reading the posts, what are the "reasons" for using this exercise in performance enhancement?…More specifically, what do your clients get from doing them?

February 16 at 3:29pm

Ryan Crandall John Hardy?

February 16 at 3:31pm

John Sinclair In a lot of cases the idea of the snatch for my athletes is to develop posterior chain strength as much as power- the assistance exercises that i teach predominate over the full lift. Lifting from blocks, from the hang and doing just the 2nd pull is more common for me than the catch phase. WE definitely substitute Db and KB and even SandBells. ViPR snatch OH throws are a good substitute like Brent mentioned. I am also experimenting with submaximal loads- under 20kg in snatching through different planes too. Seems to be generating some great results- All with ViPR! great question Larry Husted- should always be the consideration.

February 16 at 3:43pm

Brent Brookbush Great points John Sinclair, I still have yet to use the ViPR… but it seems like interesting stuff (just don't have access to one at a club I currently teach or train out of)… Like any piece of equipment, I'm sure it takes some time to figure out where it has an advantage over other equipment, and where it best fits in a program… for example, kettle bells are great for front squats and snatches, but kind of suck for specific chest and back work… I would be interested to here how you think the ViPR may alter mechanics in overhead lifts and how that works through multiple planes… it would seem to me that it actually has the same problem as a barbell in the since that it does not allow your hands to select the optimal path of motion (as opposed to dumbbells)… please don't get me wrong John Sinclair, I am not trying to bash your equipment, just being inquisitive… P.S. Give a big shout out and bro hug to Derrick Price for me the next time you see him.

February 16 at 3:50pm

Ryan Crandall ViPR---multi vectorial strength training at it's best….gotta think out of the box when using it though. Great tool!

February 16 at 3:53pm

Brent Brookbush Hey Larry Husted,

I don't know… outside of actual olympic lifting competition it seems pretty unnecessary to me… I am cool with the clean and the push press, but snatches… no mi gusta. But, then again, that's why we are having this discussion. I would think anyone could pull the information they needed from this post to start to formulate an informed decision on their use.

February 16 at 3:53pm

Shawn Fears @Barbara Kay, saying that the snatch is bad for the back because they don't squat right is an argument against the squat not the snatch. At the bottom position of the snatch (full snatch), or any position above that, the torso should be at the same angle as the back squat. Even if im snatching 100kg(I stay around 85kg without training it too much, which is light by Oly standards) it is still no comparison on my back to my 500lbs back squat. In fact it is more of a CNS warm up for my workouts and that is how I program it for athletes. If strength levels are so low that the low back is an issue then it is time to look at Brent's options while getting stronger.

One of the biggest mistakes in programming Oly lifts is to try to go heavy, it is about force and power production, not the sport of Olympic Lifting. In both my clients and myself the Oly lifts are never even close to maximal strength levels, but heavy enough to elicit a training response higher than that of plyometrics or Med ball work.

As for learning curve, I have never had to take longer than 2-4 weeks/3x per week to get sufficient technique to start to load and be able to elicit a training response for off season athletes. This is normally done immediately after the season with little to no load. This serves 2 purposes: learn the technique and recover from the season. I hear the argument a lot about taking too long to teach, if that is the case for a particular coach then I suggest that coach find alternatives because chances are that person is not proficient enough to coach the lifts.

If it is as Brent said a 4 month off season then the Oly lift technique session isn't the actual workout, but is a separate session. None of my high school athletes will have that learning curve by the time they get to college though. I expect them all to be proficient by their senior year.

As for the uses, each of the Oly lifts emphasize something different. The PC/C&J emphasize sprint starting, explosiveness and the ability to handle impact(quad dominant upright mechanics). The snatch adds to that with sprint acceleration due to the hip and hamstring dominant mechanics.

Also it takes a real understanding of what you want as a training response to pick what exercise to use, as we all know. So there are some cases where the full lift is not only unnecessary but a ridiculous choice. This is where we get into assistance lift programming as core lifts for performance enhancement as John Sinclair pointed out. A good example of this is collegiate basketball players, there is no need to pull off the floor or receive the bar overhead (snatch grip) due to their anthropometrics. They only need to train the 2nd pull off of blocks for a training effect.

By the way Brent in your super-set example a DB Front Squat would not provide anywhwere near enough load to elicit a training response in my athletes. If I have an athlete that front squats 300lbs then this would barrely be a suiteable warm up, but I know what you are getting at. I still favor Oly lifts but I am not so biased that I won't drop it for a suitable substitute based on an assessment of the client/athlete's ability and sport demands

February 16 at 4:58pm

Brent Brookbush Great points all around Shawn Fears,

I think if you are putting that type of thought into your exercise selection you are likely not the same professional who will do olympic lifts with everyone because "they are the best." These discussions purposefully aim at the grey area that leaves room for opinion, and whether I agree or disagree is both not the point, and the point at the same time. I hope that these discussions will continue to offer balance to my content… after all, no one is without bias. Everyone had such wonderful input, and although this is not the end of this discussion I want everyone to know how much I appreciate the work you put into today. I hope that students from all sides of the Human Movement profession are able to use this post to help inform their decisions, and we continue to raise the bar in discussion and debate in our industries… again kats… thank you, thank you, thank you.

February 16 at 7:52pm

Deveren Fogle just a quick lay point, it's all but impossible too get the human body to move in a straight line. so while you may think you're pulling straight, you're likely not. even if your coach says your are. also, forcing you're body tto move on a straight line can cause a whole host of other problems. it's just something the human body does not want to do..

February 17 at 10:03am via mobile

Ryan Crandall Maybe the only "bad" exercise is the exercise (any exercise or movement pattern) done excessively which does not allow the body to adapt/recover from said stress. Perhaps not allowing the body to move into the ranges our body was designed is the only bad exercise. 3d motion is the lotion.

I think NASM should take a hard look at adopting a similar philosophy.

February 17 at 8:16am

Jason Onserud Neural adaptation transfers to everything. The combination of load and speed during the snatch exercise makes it a superior choice for increase power, speed, and agility (which is basically reactive explosiveness). The DB version is actually much more risky for the shoulder than the barbell version. Actually, we have found that barbell snatches greatly increase shoulder health via the increased joint proprioception, functional strength of the inter-scapular muscles, and the flexibility of the thoracic spine which then allows increased range of the scapula bones and thus improved range of the humerus without impingement - and strength within that range. Also, when using the exercise for performance goals you're not performing 1RM's, the focus is on speed for 3-5 reps, not to failure.

February 17 at 12:00pm

Jason Onserud Of course, at our faculty, there is a thoughtful method of preparation before prescribing the snatch exercise within a client's training program.

February 17 at 12:03pm

Brent Brookbush Hey Ryan Crandall,

I humbly disagree in regard to your statement about bad exercise… there is a difference between training for optimal mechanics in the weight room and what we do on the field, court, or competitive arena. I believe we need to be the balance and that often means forgoing certain exercise that could lead to the pattern overload you are referring too… As I mentioned above, if it is your sport to do snatches than do snatches, but I think there are better exercises that pose less risk for increasing the performance of athletes (other than olympic lifting athletes). Also, I want to be clear… my statements do not necessarily reflect the opinions of NASM… I am my own entity and have my own education platform. Although many at NASM would agree with my statements, there are those who do not, and there has been discussion at NASM about an olympic lifting workshop and how olympic lifts would fit in the NASM OPT model. At the end of the day the brilliance of NASM is an organized system for creating progressive, evidence-based performance and corrective exercise programs… any exercise fits… it just helps you organize the volumes of information and exercise that are out there.

Great comments Jason Onserud, I don't know that we can conclusively say that it is "the superior choice" with so many other options and variables to consider… as I mentioned… PAP supersets (for example, heavy back squats followed by max box jumps) are likely to have a larger effect on vertical jump performance with less risk of injury. With that being said I do appreciate where you are coming from.

February 17 at 9:22pm

Deveren Fogle i believe, and again from what the lay person sees, and what is reality, is that a lot of things we do for sports (or in preparation do it) are not inherently good for the body no matter what type of spin you put on it. too much of anything is bad for you, an oly lifting is in fact a sport. a golf swing is also "bad" for golfers because of the imbalances it causes in spinal rotation, baseball the same thing. We can pick out anything sports related to pick and debate, and throw around theory with personal examples of what we have "observed". again training for sport and doing that sport is an entirely different beast from training to be healthy and have longevity. that's why everyone eventually retires and spends the rest of their lives living with the injuries or problems associated with said sport. basketball players have knee problems, because of all the jumping etc. you cant do it forever, nor should you. it will catch up with you if done over and over again. we're only human, t at the same time training for an advantage in sportt is again much different than normal fitness training.

of course there are benefits to doing bb snatches the right way, as there are doing them with dbs, kbs, sandbag etc. none are perfect, heck I'd even argue that the human body shouldnt be lifting that much weight over head (not meant to do it) but we do it because it makes us "stronger" we just have to realize that one day we wont or shouldnt be doing it anymore because of the, damage it will eventually cause.

February 18 at 9:08am

Ryan Crandall Any exercise can lead to pattern overload. Even walking (try walking across the USA without stopping-extreme example I know it's my cross to bare).

February 18 at 9:41am

Jason Onserud Hi Brent, what I actually said is that the snatch is "a" superior choice as opposed to "the" superior choice, because I definitely agree there are other options, but we and many other coaches have found via data collection that there is a great transfer of power to the field and to other resistance exercises; for example the back squat loads increase more quickly when an Olympic lifting exercise is within the same program.

February 18 at 11:35am

Brent Brookbush Interesting point Jason Onserud,

I should mention I am not against all of the olympic lifts… I actually really like cleans, and the push press for shoulders that have no upper body dysfunction. It's really the posterior force at the top of the movement in snatches that bothers me. I hope it hasn't come across that I am anti all oly lifts. I have used cleans and clean to press, and thrusters in my power programs and got some great benefits.

February 18 at 2:09pm

Brent Brookbush Great comment, Deveren Fogle

And Ryan Crandall, I think we are on the same page despite your extreme example

February 18 at 2:10pm

John Sinclair @deveren I never said the body moves in a straight line but I did say the bar should move as close to a straight line. With kinesiocapture we have proven this with our lifters. You move the body around the bar. Great comments guys! I definitely agree w…See More

February 18 at 7:47pm

Brent Brookbush Nicely said John Sinclair… always for the integrated approach!

February 18 at 7:55pm

Barbara Kay I like that Brent is "his own entity"

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