Panel Discussion: Why is there so much hate, unprovoked destructive criticism and disrespect in social media forums?
AND…. to add a practical component to this discussion and balance the negativity:
What are some rules/guidelines that an individual may follow in social media forums to ensure a debate progresses with the intention of professional growth for both parties?
Moderated by Brent Brookbush DPT, PT, MS, PES, CES, CSCS, ACSM H/FS
This discussion started on my personal Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/brent.brookbush on Novemeber 1st, 2014
Scotty Butcher Phd Easy to hide behind a keyboard and screen. Hard to write a balanced response that people will actually read.
November 1 at 10:46am
Brent Brookbush Any suggestions for those individuals who are actually looking to keep the debate constructive Scotty Butcher Phd?
November 1 at 10:48am
Scotty Butcher Phd Not really, Brent. I think it comes down to the motivations of the individuals and their inherent ability to constructively argue. I guess a strong statement from the moderator with clear guidelines for posts (and post removal) would help.
November 1 at 10:51am
Brent Brookbush 2 great points Scotty Butcher Phd:
What are the Intentions of those in the discussion?
Moderators should not be afraid to delete posts and block trolls
(That's "troll" in the social media sense -
Troll (Internet) -
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
November 1 at 10:56am
Brent Brookbush Other great professionals I would love to hear from who did not get hyperlinked above - Kathy Dooley, Kathy Benson Zetterberg, Tim Henriques, Brittanie Gulzow Lockard, Cassandra Forsythe, Bill Ito, Jinny McGivern, Dr. Stefanie DiCarrado, DPT, CPT, CES, Annie Malaythong and Larry Husted
November 1 at 10:58am
Ryan Chow Keep the forum exclusive in order to keep a discussion constructive. IE - I doubt if there were an APTA discussion forum, there would be trolls on there. I'm in a DPT students Facebook group and the discussions are civilized and helpful
November 1 at 11:11am
Rob Fluegel You're wrong Brent! And let me tell you how I know… oh nevermind.
Seriously, Scotty hit it on the head. Easy to sit behind a computer and attack but not bring anything to the discussion. I think a lot of it has to do with humility and ego (not enough of the first and too much of the second).
November 1 at 11:16am
Brent Brookbush Hey Ryan Chow,
That creates a bit of a marketing issue… exclusive often means "not for the public," and if you are trying to get a discussion or forum recognized that may be a problem. For example, take your favorite exclusive group and compare it to the National Academy of Sports Medicine (NASM) page. Your exclusive group may have 500 - 1500 members (if it is popular), where as NASM has 86,000+. The advantage NASM has is the number of conversation and the amount of input that an individual can receive for literally any question.
November 1 at 11:17am
Ryan Chow I don't think I would want 86,000 opinions for a question, just a few good ones from people who know what they are talking about. The exclusivity prevents the less mature from ruining the discussion with baseless claims, name calling, etc.
November 1 at 11:25am
Brent Brookbush Great points Rob Fluegel,
I have been very fortunate to meet people like yourself (Faculty for Maitland-Australian Physiotherapy Seminars) through out my entire career. Real experts, with awareness of other experts, who are aware of the giants, who show us that significant contributions in the field are made by the dedicated lifes-work of an individual… not a single paper, or rant, or idea. No matter how bright, ambitious or hard-working there are incredible individuals with the same attributes and intentions that came before us and are working hard to progress the field forward as we speak.
Reminds me of my days studying Jazz (I know some of you have heard this story) - you knew going into Jazz that you could never be bigger than the music… you can never be better than Parker, Coltrane, Davis, Shaw, etc… all you could do is study their music, learn the language and hope to add something to that language as you matured and found your own voice.
Too much Ego, not enough humility.
On that point, I think we all need to keep in mind that you never really know how much the person on the other end of the conversation actually knows.
November 1 at 11:25am
Brent Brookbush Hey Ryan Chow,
86,000 is not as much as you may think… the truth is… most individuals who join or follow anything on the internet are passive observers. Click through rates are fractions of 1%. I have never seen more than 15 or 20 people on an NASM post.
November 1 at 11:27am
Perry Nickelston Honestly don't think you can realistically avoid them. The more popular you become on the internet the more of a target you become. Don't add wind to the flame by debating. It spirals out of control. Stay respectful yourself and maintain Integrity. If they don't reciprocate, then you will have to delete them out of respect for the others. And in my opinion, if someone trolls on you, it means you are probably doing something right. Haters gonna hate. Have yet to see one cross over to having character.
November 1 at 11:49am
Mark Jamantoc You can't avoid them. It's freedom of speech and freedom to say whatever the €£¥$&@ they want. But here's the deal: we attract who we are.
According to Simon Sinek: the goal is to not do business with people who need what we have. The goal is to do business with people who believe what we believe in.
You will be attracting people like you and who mirrors the principles. Makes for a fun, open, and mind blowing conversation --- which you will probably enjoy more than talking to a wall that pushes you back.
November 1 at 11:53am
Kathy Benson Zetterberg There will always be lovers and haters in our world…unfortunately social media has given the haters a sounding platform to spew out their opinions. I will add when I read on social media information that will either mislead or harm I will add my opinion ( especially when it come to health and fitness topics ). Some might view my opinion as negative, but if given the opportunity to debate in a non threating manner most can form their own opinion on which side they agree upon.
November 1 at 11:53am
Ken O'Neill Your question presupposes persons are seeking personal and professional growth. Given the deeply entrenched bias and opionation evidenced more often than not, I seriously question how much growth is sought versus merely substantiation of dogmas invested in - be they political, religious, or Scientism itself.
As for freedom of speech, I'm real sick of that being offered up as a tawdry excuse for evading and avoiding adult responsibility. We also hear the same polemic from irresponsible journalists and grand standing polticians.
November 1 at 11:54am
Brian Sutton This is a tricky issue. The one thing I've learned over the years is that is always easier to criticize than create, especially online. When we put our work out there for the public, some have an open mind and appreciate the creative process. Unfortunately there will always be those individuals who like to criticize and be scinical, just for the sake of it. I agree with the statement from above, it's much easier to hide behind a keyboard. It is best to have thick skin, moderate the discussion and continue to look at the big picture. I tend to focus on feedback I get from my true peers, mentors and professionals in the industry. The rest is mostly white noise.
November 1 at 11:55am
Brent Brookbush Great point at the end Perry Nickelston,
It is important to get a sense of whether the person you are talking to is actually capable of change… or for that matter is a person of character.
November 1 at 11:55am
Didi Frizell cause the haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate! Just gotta shake it off
November 1 at 11:58am
Brent Brookbush I like your last paragraph Ken O'Neill,
"As for freedom of speech, I'm real sick of that being offered up as a tawdry excuse for evading and avoiding adult responsibility."
I would wrap up that same statement in a bow of - "How about being considerate?"
In my little idealistic world, there is a social responsible to be considerate and respectful to the individual you are speaking too. Ken, you and I are actually a great example of two fiery personalities with fairly large knowledge bases, going at each other pretty fiercely, but… do to mutual respect we found common ground, advanced the conversation, and know we get to have conversations like this one several times a year.
November 1 at 12:01pm
Brent Brookbush Great points Brian Sutton,
A colloquialism I stole from Rick Richey - "It takes a great man to build a barn, but any asshole can come and kick it down"
Sometimes all it takes to "take the wind from the sails" of the haters is ask them to produce work themselves. As in "Great, you don't like this idea (exercise, intervention, theory) - if you can produce a superior idea I would be happy to adopt it - please send me the hyperlink"
As we both know, writing books, producing videos, writing articles, programs, interventions, etc… takes time, effort, dedication, and a passion for what you do. Too bad there are so many people ready to destructively criticize, defame and demean.
P.S.
The ideas above have also made me reconsider my view on "Siskel and Ebert" - total pricks
November 1 at 12:08pm · Like · 3
Gary Miller I feel those who criticize a lot of times are afraid to try and do something themselves, however if you are going create something or present and idea we must be prepared to be challenged. And with that do our best to try and respond with class the best we can no matter how hard those opposed to our ideas press back in a negative way. It will be a never ending battle.
November 1 at 12:29pm
Yvette Figueroa My understanding of this “hating” business is, when someone dislikes
someone’s behavior, it usually stems from the person who is “hating” possesses
the same attributes as the person they are hating on and thus, has a subconscious hate on themselves. The flip side to this, is when someone
admires another, they aspire to seek same attributes or are inspired by that person. People don’t like to admit their own flaws
and choose to point fingers and tell others why, who and whether they should
and shouldn’t be doing or saying a certain thing. I get this all the time. JUST yesterday someone said to me, “wow, you
are so thorough”, like it were a bad thing. I at times make people feel a certain way, but that is never my
intention to make someone feel badly. I never personally attack others, however, these alleged haters seem to do so… I'm still trying to understand it all. I believe all the connecting
on social media has created a disconnect. So… sadly, people are becoming incapable of developing an
understanding of peoples true intentions. “Seek to understand, to then be understood, ~ by Dr. Stephen R. Covey #7habitsofhighlyeffectivepeople kill time by #readingabook instead…
November 1 at 12:41pm
Brent Brookbush I think were I draw a definitive line Perry Nickelston, Gary Miller and Brian Sutton is when "Haters" go beyond critiquing an organization or public figure and start attacking their students… literally demeaning, insulting and disenfranchising those individuals who are just eager to learn - This is a serious ethical issue that I cannot seem to let go. How someone could be willing to thwart the motivation of an individual trying to make themselves better is beyond me, and at some level worthy of retribution. Am I wrong?
November 1 at 12:44pm
Perry Nickelston Brent Brookbush You are 100% right.
November 1 at 12:48pm
Kathy Benson Zetterberg Often times when groups and or people criticize, they are finding truth in what is being said. I personally know that NASM's teachings have been criticized by many individuals and groups on social media. But on the other hand I see what they post and often wonder how they come up with their findings. What I do is determine what works for me based upon the science behind it and try to engage in a professional debate,
November 1 at 6:22pm
Steve Middleton It seems there are 3 major camps: the spiritual/energy healers/toxin removers, the neural mindset and the fasciaists. Everyone feels they are right which, by default, means everybody else is wrong.
I see most of the venom/hatred coming from the neural group. They are all about "pain science". The issue isn't so much that they just disagree with everybody else but also feels anyone who doesn't agree with them is "intellectually inferior" to them.
I think groups work best if they are facilitated by like minded individuals. While most consider this closed mindedness, it is a group working towards a common goal.
November 1 at 1:03pm
Missy Byler Shilts · 3 mutual friends
1 I think people feel more free to share every thought in their head - like they used to do in a diary. Problem is they are not face to face so they get no visual reaction - that would stop many people from foaming at the mouth. #2 - some people just do not communicate their meaning well - or those reading a post will misinterpret the motive - or meaning of what they are reading. Then they respond back - it becomes a bit like an adult reprimanding a kid and we all know how much other adults love to be reprimanded. Finally there are just trolls who want to start a fight. Ignoring them is the best way to get rid of them because they get very bored when no one will listen and they will search elsewhere until they do. This is a free social media we have here so you will have this. Join in a fee based site and you will have less of this. Administration can help by deleting posts but unless it is a closed group they may become weary of constantly chasing after the negative nellies.
November 1 at 1:07pm
Kathy Benson Zetterberg Brent Brookbush try not to worry about what others are saying to your students. It is their opinion, and the people who follow you and can determine the truth behind the science, are smart enough to weed out the haters and see their motives.
November 1 at 1:09pm
Leon Chaitow Yvette…I believe quite the opposite, and base this on the psychotherapy model known as Voice Dialogue (VD: a Jungian approach). This explains intense dislike/hatred as commonly stemming from a passionate dislike of personal attributes that have been suppressed in the person who is reacting to someone else. A simple example would be the ultra-liberal's 'hatred' of the ultra-conservative (and vice-versa). VD maintains that everyone has multiple characteristics (in VD these are known as 'sub-personalities) but that some are given freedom of expression, while others are suppressed….and it is the suppressed ones that carry a potency that is expressed violently (verbally, electronically or physically) against those who display the very characteristics that have been suppressed. I urge all interested in psychotherapeutic models to investigate the work of Drs. Stone and Winkelman and their numerous texts on Voice Dialogue….it explained a lot to me (for example why I instantly dislike some people - and vice versa)….do a google search on their work,,,well worth the effort. As for the phenomenon that this thread is evaluating - the added dimension of relative anonymity that social networks offers is simply a license for bullying to be more overt…it's not new. Solutions? …simply exclude anyone who crosses the delicate line between disagreement and abuse.
November 1 at 1:12pm
Missy Byler Shilts · 3 mutual friends
I think it is just a lot more simple than that.
November 1 at 1:18pm
Leon Chaitow where behaviour is concerned…nothing is simple Missy…yes we can simplify it, but dig underneath and it's complex
November 1 at 1:20pm
Missy Byler Shilts · 3 mutual friends
What does it say about me that I want to debate this issue with you? LOL I will just agree that we disagree - though I will concede that in some cases it is more complicated.
November 1 at 1:24pm
Josh Hasenohrl I've seen many people hate with destructive criticism because they either don't fully understand the topic or they are threatened by it. You see the same patterns in people who are jealous and immediately attack someone with sarcasm or anger. Thanks for offering this panel today! There are some great comments!
November 1 at 1:52pm
Brent Brookbush Hey Steve Middleton,
You bring up two important logical fallacies… One is the idea that human movement science is a "zero sum game" - The idea that there is only room for one idea -
I wrote an article about this topic - "Just because you're right, doesn't mean I'm wrong" - https://brentbrookbush.com/online-courses/online-courses/just-because-you-are-right…/
The other is that these individuals who prop themselves up with a theory or model that is not their own, actually speak on behalf of the individuals who created the model.
I seriously doubt that the 3 largest trolls in social media (Jonathan Fass, Jason Silvernail, Lars Avemarie) actually speak for Mosely and Butler. In fact, I just finished reading 2 pages in the book "The Sensitive Nervous System" where Butler talks about integrating pain science into what we know… and that experience is still more important than any single study. He goes onto mention names of several individuals that are incredibly important to manual therapy… the same individuals that our Trolls have dismissed as unimportant (Cyriax, Maitland, Shacklock, Sahrmann, etc….)
The superiority complex of these trolls is disturbing and disenfranchising to many students… they often gang up on a single individual, and are incredibly condescending. I mentioned this in Perry Nickelston's, post… but… these are 3 individuals deserving of retribution for the negative impact they have had on student motivation and several educational forums.
Their punishment… block them from your page and warn the administrator of any group that they are a part of, that you refuse to participate or even be a member until they are blocked, and spread the word. Essentially, take their stage away from them.
Just because you’re right, doesn’t mean I’m wrong | Brent Brookbush
Just because you’re right, doesn’t mean I’m wrong Posted…
BRENTBROOKBUSH.COM
November 1 at 2:36pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Brent Brookbush Hey Kathy Benson Zetterberg,
Your comment about NASM's critics brings up another great point…
UNLESS YOU HAVE READ AND EXPERIENCED THE MATERIAL IN QUESTION, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE!
NASM texts stand as some of the most current and well cited texts in the industry - just check out the bibliography. Most of the critiques are by individuals who Know very little about the model, except what they have heard from other people.
November 1 at 2:40pm
Kathy Benson Zetterberg Right on and Amen Brent Brookbush!!!
November 1 at 2:41pm
Missy Byler Shilts · 3 mutual friends
From what I have experienced and have seen - Trolls don't feel superior but they post things to stir a pot. People who feel superior really seem to like themselves. I think trolls are actually very lonely people who do not like themselves much or at least do not feel good about themselves. So they stir a pot and get interaction that they are lacking in real life. This is my theory not based off of anything scientific. But I am a watcher and studier (is that a word) of people.
November 1 at 2:42pm
Brent Brookbush Leon Chaitow,
Love your posts… You have yet to make a single statement that was not supported by research and several studies. I am going to check out the Jugian VD model, as the topic in this discussion has been personally trying as my education company has grown. I look forward to understanding this behavior better.
Thanks for the insights into behavior.
November 1 at 2:42pm
Brent Brookbush Hey Missy Byler Shilts,
To your point, it is very rare that I get personally heated over a debate, but this year has been a little different. On a few occasions I have been riled up to the point of real anger. I remember on one occasion I shared a particularly infuriating discussion with a friend with the comment "I dare this @#@# to say something like this to my face… It makes me want to knock ######" - (As you can tell I was upset :-)~) -
My friends response… "it sounds like he needs a hug"
November 1 at 2:47pm
Yvette Figueroa Thank you Leon for this, I will definitely research the VD/Jungian approach. I have become much more intrigued with people's behavior in general, not just on social media. Thank you! Oh and you are correct and your point proven, regarding behavior is very complex, the more more try to understand it the more complex it becomes. For ME, I TRY, to understand people's intentions, unless they are hostile towards me…then I simply shut down and "walk away".
November 1 at 3:02pm
Missy Byler Shilts · 3 mutual friends
I understand getting angry over some critical responses but then I also really think if you believe what you claim to believe then what you believe should be able to stand against criticism. If people are just being jerks the saying holds true that we can't control what someone does, but we can control our reaction. Not that I haven't wanted to knock someone's block off a time or ten.
November 1 at 3:05pm
Yvette Figueroa hmm… interesting Missy… I'd like Leon's thoughts on adults reaction to hitting and thoughts of hitting and PTSD(Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome) It is not a normal response to want to hit people, yet this happens all the time. Ever been in a crowded NYC subway train? I react with silence or ignoring or on FB I block them. Again, I'm referring to those who seem to go over the line and become abusive in language or want to debate an issue/non-issue ad nauseum. It's never THAT serious.
November 1 at 3:24pm
Josh Hasenohrl As I read all the comments and continuously bring myself back to Brent Brookbushs original question; my uneducated mind just keeps defaulting to this answer: personal opinion and lack of education on the topic. It doesn't matter if the topic is in social media or in the locker room of a gym talking about post workout nutrition. Just look at how many times someone will tell you you're doing it wrong instead of asking why your doing it that way. Whether it's working out or eating a certain way. The same hater will look back in time and find something you said. That hater will throw it in your face and exploit it when they seem to miss the multiple times you've presented yourself as trying to continuously improve.
November 1 at 3:28pm
Andrew Kirby Brent, just do ya own thang floating under the radar is the way to go.
November 1 at 5:41pm
Brent Brookbush I guess my one criticism of your comment Andrew Kirby, is that this is not realistic for those of us offering education nationally - you can't fly under the radar and be successful - which goes back to a previous statement - it's not criticism of our platforms that worries me, but the intent to demean, disenfranchise and confuse students of those platforms.
November 1 at 6:20pm
Josh Hasenohrl It's hard to speak up because of the hate…although I'd rather share and provide quality knowledge over staying quiet any day! I'm the guy that argues the importance of carbs with the "meat heads" and I'm also the guy who hands out articles on why you shouldn't conduct pull downs behind the head. I speak up with intent to help people move better.
November 1 at 6:27pm
Missy Byler Shilts · 3 mutual friends
I just watched your video of the overhead squat assessment and it was great. So you just keep encouraging those who need it and hopefully the debbydowners will just fade out.
November 1 at 6:31pm
Missy Byler Shilts · 3 mutual friends
I also think it is good to remember that people really buy into many different views and even though we stand behind something we believe to be science backed - many of them think the same thing. All we have to do is look to the medical industry to see that one day X is the best thing and then 2 years later they realize that X created more issues than it helped. You will never convince someone they are wrong if they believe they are right. For every study out there - there seems to be another to contradict it.
November 1 at 6:37pm
Josh Hasenohrl Missy - I went through Brent's entire overhead squat training and will be taking the test soon for some needed CEUs. The training was well worth the 3 hours.
November 1 at 7:03pm
Leon Chaitow Brent Brookbush…on a personal level, I too have experienced on-line abuse in responses to what I have thought to be fairly benign comments or statements. I no longer take dismissive, hostile and sometimes threatening comments too seriously, although at the outset it was a surprise that such heat could be generated by the exchange of ideas! Not knowing the particular circumstances, stresses, motivations of those hurling abuse it seems to me that the phenomenon should be handled by avoidance of further contact wherever possible, as experience has shown that attempts at reasoning or persuasion are usually futile. The fact is that there are a great many very unhappy and very angry (and sometimes damaged) people around - and not only online! I wish I had solutions…but the best I can do is to try to understand, and to do my level best to avoid further interactions. Thankfully by far the majority of those I come into contact with in this strange new medium are curious, positive and polite --- even when they disagree, which is just fine as this is the path to broader understanding. As for the query by Yvette regarding 'hitting' - I'm not sure I understand what is being asked, so cannot respond?
November 1 at 8:39pm
Brent Brookbush Thanks Leon Chaitow,
Although it has taken me some time to get there personally, I share your view…if things seem unnecessarily heated… avoid. By far, I see more support than hate - for example I get roughly 3 dislikes for every 100 likes on Youtube… far and away more positive.
This is the first year I have run into professionals, academics and clinicians who seem to play the "hating" game… and that threw me for a loop. These are well educated individuals with intentions that do not match the sophistication of the letters after their name. I was baited, but as you mentioned some of the issues these individuals have go far beyond a professional disagreement, and are likely generated by personal feelings and a need to act out.
In conclusion, it seems like we actually have found a viable solution Perry Nickelston, Josh Hasenohrl, Missy Byler Shilts, Andrew Kirby, Yvette Figueroa, Kathy Benson Zetterberg, Didi Frizell, Steve Middleton, Ken O'Neill, Scotty Butcher Phd, Ryan Chow, Rob Fluegel, Mark Jamantoc, Gary Miller and Brian Sutton (hope I have not forgot anyone) -
On social media - report harassment, delete malicious posts, and block individuals whose intentions seem to be malicious
We may even take this one step further and inform like minded individuals of the situation so they may decide if blocking this individual in advance of future issues is appropriate. Great discussion Kats!
November 1 at 9:01pm
Ken O'Neill I remain leary of generalized use of 'hate' and 'hater', rather much a bastard child convention of social media of late. Perhaps it's my age, perhaps it's my continuing education with respect to English as my first language, perhaps a grand appreciation for the wide spectrum of understanding born of vocabulary. Whatever it is, social media use of 'hate' and 'hater' comes off as pathetically indolent with respect to ignorance as impoverished vocabulary, hence of understanding people.
I've been labelled a 'hater' many a time simply due to registering disagreement with someone's pet opinion, more often with their favorite commercial theory of exercise (yes, commercial as distinct from a modicum of science). My response to such accusations is often utter bewilderment. Hateful of something to laughable? in some cases, so bewilderingly idiotic? Seems like 'hater' accusations are simply an attempt to dismiss difference with a social media code word having nothing whatsoever to do with psychological/emotional hatred.
So, for me, seeing 'hate' and 'hater' have become signals of loose canons on board, persons best avoided due to abject peurility - easily anger, prone to name calling, and evidencing opinions so deeply rooted as to render their holder ineducable.
November 1 at 9:50pm
Brent Brookbush Interesting Ken O'Neill,
We are certainly not implying that anyone who disagree's is a "hater"… what we are referring to is the distasteful behavior of some individuals who could be labeled "Trolls" (see definition above). These are not individuals that disagree with an argument, but people who are motivated to disagree with every argument and infuriate anyone they can bait into a discussion.
November 1 at 10:05pm
Roberta Shoemaker-Beal · 2 mutual friends
Some call it the need for NET- i -quette !!!
November 1 at 10:28pm
Ktm Kim I guess it all boils down to ultimate egoic intention of the individual. If you're engaging in a discussion with sincere desire to learn, and help others, then you won't get your buttons pressed. But people whose egos take a hit when their 'belief system' comes crashing down due to conflicting new information, will often find themselves engaging in spewing insults and so on. Once a person resorts to insults, they've lost an argument in my opinion. The information is no longer valuable once a person is triggered psychologically and the raw emotions are a perfect tell-tale sign of some deeply embedded trauma. If we can understand this while its happening, and continue to behave professionally, then BRAVO But a lot of times, we let the emotions take over and we verbalize/type our beliefs in forceful ways as the inner child kicks and screams that the tooth fairy IS real. I don't know if rules and guidelines will make much of a difference. It takes a humble person to continue to grow in leaps and bounds by absorbing information. Stagnation is all too prominent when a belief system comes into play and we identify with something. (I hope that helped with the discussion, if it didn't, please ignore me so I don't have to validate my stupidity with nasty language
November 1 at 11:35pm
Jason Erickson The first and most important step is to model the behaviors you wish others to display.
November 2 at 1:27am
Tim Henriques I think it is from the combination of the short information that is provided and the fact that a real person is not right in front of you (think of how often you have a strong negative reaction to a car that cuts you off but you would not react so strongly to a person doing a similar action). FB and social media don't really encourage debates. Personally when I post I am just sharing my opinion, the reader can take it or not, but I am not interested in having a debate with them. Real debates should take place between experts on relatively equal footing in a setting that encourages dialogue and exchange and the proper tone for challenging positions. If somebody really wanted to debate me then they could PM me or call or email or whatever and we could set something up. And I would be honest about your own position. An as expert in the field are we going to change our views on a topic after a 1 page discussion? Very likely not. Personally I feel my views are changeable but not in this contest and you probably won't change their views either unless they are genuinely looking for new information, which goes back to the above. I post my opinion and generally move on. I do it with the goal that the silent third party majority which is the unbiased reader will get something from the discourse. Again that is just my take on it.
November 2 at 8:24am
Jason Erickson I have set forth many thoughts regarding professional discussion/debate here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/611431842200765/permalink/611508235526459/
Please note the contributions made by others, both in questions and clarifications.
That page has attracted a diverse group of people who have varying levels of education, cognitive abilities, critical thinking skills, and communication skills. It has been remarkable to observe the way conversations there have been evolving since the page began last year.
Jason Erickson updated the description of the group Massage Therapists.
Massage Therapists that care about their profession and wish to discuss what we do. We respect one another, but do not expect everyone to agree. We welcome open debate and the presentation of evidence for/against any concept/practice. Wear your thinking cap and be willing to accept that you may be wrong about something. We are all adults here, and adult behavior is expected.
Childish behavior (whining, tantrums, name-calling, etc.) will not be condoned. This is a professional discussion page, not a playground.
Professionals representing other health/fitness professions are also welcome. This includes PTs, DCs, MDs, DOs, ATCs, personal trainers, etcetera. We all share a common goal: To improve the health of our clients/patients and encourage healthy habits.
Trolls, spam, advertising for products/classes, and such are prohibited. This page is for discussion, not for sales. If a link to information about a class/product is directly relevant to a discussion, that's fine.
This group is not about treating every opinion and idea as equally valid. We're not here for a group hug. For a profession to advance, it must discard outdated/disproven/untenable ideas.
This short video on "Open-Mindedness" may be helpful for orientation purposes: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI
This video on "Critical Thinking" may also be helpful: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OLPL5p0fMg
November 2 at 1:54pm
Brent Brookbush Great points Tim Henriques,
I do believe a forum like this has the power to improve the tone of debate in the industry. Most of that power comes from the participation of high caliber, well-respected professionals in the industry (like yourself) sharing their views. This gives 1000's of 3rd party, passive observers the chance to hear how the leaders industry think about the current tone of discourse and a chance for them to carry that message with them to other groups. Don't sell yourself short - you have far more influence than you think.
November 2 at 7:11pm ·
Brent Brookbush Read your post, joined your group, and very well said Jason Erickson
November 2 at 7:11pm
Tony Susnjara Jason, I think you should be applauded for the explicit stance you have taken on trolling and other nonconstructive ways of communicating. I watched the video on open mindedness and have what I think is a constructive comment to make. Science is not completely objective. It can be seriously subjective. I have seen experiments set up in a particular way and then the interpretation of the data has been so generalised.
Scientific evidence is always a work in progress. It is rarely a final arbitration on a matter. I fully appreciate the need for falsifiability and so on however I don't see this as all or nothing, just one more piece of a puzzle leading in a particular direction.
This image below shows 4 dimensions of reality each of which is equally 'real' and the objective is half of that reality, the other half is subjective. I tend to see subjectivity infiltrating scientific research even when the researcher is trying to be as objective as possible and I can give you specific examples in the field of health science that I have seen time and time again. This integral framework can assist in looking at an issue from multiple perspectives. http://evolutionaryleadership.com.au/…/2012/04/Graph1.png
EVOLUTIONARYLEADERSHIP.COM.AU
November 2 at 7:28pm
Jason Erickson Thank you for this, Tony, ^^^ I quite agree with you. The videos posted on that other page are entry-level for people that aren't already familiar with higher levels of critical thinking and scientific methods.
The other folks who help moderate that page go through a training process that helps them understand the rules and intent of the page, and effective ways of moderating with a light hand. Our page admin team includes a physicist, a science writer, massage instructors, and others who have repeatedly demonstrated a higher level of both scientific understanding and professional communications skills.
We often discuss how to address the way page members are communicating/interacting and how we coach them privately via PM so they can learn how to participate on a higher level. The points you have raised would make for an excellent topic of discussion.
November 2 at 9:09pm